Curse

gr3g · Sep 10, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

In the history of Guild Wars there has been a lot of changes to skills, AI, interface that have affected game play. Some of the changes are to help balance out PvP and may have had an adverse impact on PvE. However to say that the same has not happened the other way around would be wrong. There have been changes to PvE that have adversely affected PvP at times as well. Over time, though, there have been *far* more skills improved in some way that toned down, and those improved skills often see more use in PvE than PvP.

Sorry, I think you are equivocating there. I honestly can't think of a single instance where a change to PvE has adversely affected PvP. Let's look at the major changes to PvE:

Introduction of the area-of-effect chicken run: maybe affects henchway, but I can't really see how it's an adverse effect.
Introduction of green items: for a brief period in time greens such as Victo's Bulwark were a good choice for PvE chars being used for PvP. But whatever the effect, it only equalized the field - hardly an adverse effect on PvP. There are a small number of greens that are used in odd situations in PvP (Geoffer's Bulwark for anit-rspike, Malinon's Shield for anti-vimway), but these instances are vanishingly few and again can't really be seen as an adverse effect on PvP.
Removal of mildly unbalancing quest items such as the Nolani wand or the pre-nerf Fiery Flame Spitter. The effect on PvP was miniscule at best, and arguably it made the PvP game fairer.
Removal of the HoD sword: OK, maybe the only real PvE change that can be argued as having an adverse effect on PvP as it created an elite class of players who had a HoD sword. But that's mostly because they weren't properly removed like the Nolani wand (that is, removing existing copies as well). Can hardly blame a change to the game for what was basically a policy decision made by ArenaNet, and in any case it's ancient history now.
Uhh... that's about all I can think of that's a purely PvE change.

Every other skill or item nerf in this game has been because of PvP balance. If I'm wrong, give me one example to substantiate your claim that:

[t]here have been changes to PvE that have adversely affected PvP at times as well.

Kais Unduli · Sep 10, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Great option for the hardcore pvp players, and also for those who pve mainly and would like to get into pvp, but don't have the skills unlocked they need to create some of the builds used. I like this idea a lot.

Nevin · Sep 10, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Excuse me, but what planet do you live on, where profit is evil and companies all operate as a charity? Do you want more games? Do you want to see the servers run, updates added, balance changes rolled out, and much more? Then stop the childish whines about "cash" and deal with it. But, wait, I malign children with that, for any child who's ever operated a lemonade stand knows about profit, and realizes it's not something to be shunned. Sheesh!

Don't put words in my mouth, its rude. I wasn't making a stab at all, simply clearing up your candy coated statement.

WasAGuest · Sep 10, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

The AoE "fix" still isn't fixed though. Mob AI flee even if taking no damage from an AoE; while all other AI, henchies and those wierd NPCs in cantha city areas just stand there wondering why they are dieing.
The AoE "fix" would have been a "fix" if it effected all AI. As it was and still is, a broken code and did nothing but "nerf" the players ele class. Once the henchies are as smart as the mobs when it comes to standing in a "wow fire from the sky, think it will hurt?" AE, then it will be a "fix".

EoE was also not fixed, it wasn't broken to begin with. I never farmed with it, but I did use it while out with henchies to soften the targets as I went out. Often it would backfire as henchies would do something dumb, but it worked as it was said too. Now, there is no use for it unless I build my character around it, thusly forcing me into yet another cookie cutter build situation.

I say the above in hopes maybe Anet is seeing the different tastes in gaming and will be finally seperating PvP and PvE in more than just purchasable paks. Perhaps we will start seeing changes to PvP exploited skills changed in PvP only, and exploited skills in PvE changed in PvE only without making the skills useless on the other end. Anyone looking at the skills now can see that they are balanced for level 20 players, not dumb level 28 mobs... and they have to be dumb (which makes them easy) so the skills can't be tweaked and reworked cause they will off balance the PvP end.

As for other thoughts and concerns:

With these paks I see the word "options" and "requested" coming up. I will also bring up "content" and "features" to combine with those.

The players have been requesting "features" (such as storage and UaS) for some time. We were told that global "features" would be free and available to everyone. This did not hold true with the material storage and we were told to pretty much STFU about it. Now, we are starting to see other "features" being added as "content" (which we already paid for*) and "options". This concerns me and others I have spoken to about this, as many "features" such as changing the characters appearance should not be something we are made to pay for. UaS is a feature, not a new content purchase nor is it something new. It is a nice addition, but so would being able to change one's appearance... see where this could be going?

*Some players already purchased Factions (for example), now they are paying for nothing new; just to suddenly have all the cards (like going to a MTG tourney and paying to use specific cards that you already have, but you haven't opened that pack yet).

Like I said, it's a nice addition for those that will use it. I give Anet applause for making it happen as it was asked for. I am just hoping and wary that many future requested "features" are done the same way. Content, I would pay for, new quests, missions, things that take time. Features... I'll be looking for a new game to sink my time into, if I am required to start buying features for my characters.

The Fox · Sep 10, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

P.R. speaking = Good choice! This is a way to make pvp players happy, while making some extra cash off of old campaigns. aka (prophecies)

Economically speaking = Bad choice for profits, since this will encourage pvp players to not buy future expansions; rather they will purchase the cheaper and therefore less profitable pvp packs instead. Pvp people generally come from the "hooked on G.W.'s because they've spent 100's of hours playing crowd," so you're basically giving those who are most likely to buy future expansions (since they're addicted) a way to save money because they've already burnt out on pve.

Questions - Will the increase in profits though these packs outweight the loss of profits that is inevitable to occure though less overall Chapter sales?

Take the percent people leaving G.W.'s who are pvp characters and compare to the % of pvp people who continue playing since these packs are availiable. (this is all positive profits)

Now subtract the % of pvp people who don't buy the full game because they can get the cheaper skill packs. (that's very negative profits)

Minor variables:
% of new sales caused by the retained pvp people who would have quite
% of sales lost by the people who would have bought the full game and maybe be revitalized on pve and then convinced more friends to buy the game.
% of people who.... It's 1:00 in the freakin morning! why on earth am I trying to think at this hour of the night?

GL GW I hope you make lots of $ so you'll keep making future chapters for me to play

Basically i was trying to say that price discrimination will only increase profits if you're using it to capture sales from those who are on the boarder line of purchasing (NOT in the GW is CRACK crowd) Note- you've already incured the cost of creating the game and server expenses should be basically the same if they've playing pvp or pve.

Alleji · Sep 10, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr3g

Sorry, I think you are equivocating there. I honestly can't think of a single instance where a change to PvE has adversely affected PvP. Let's look at the major changes to PvE:

<snip>

PvE doesn't need balancing - monsters don't innovate. Anet balanced them when the game was created and the monsters still use the same skills in the same way today as they had last year.

Players in PvP, however, find ways to abuse skills and if this abuse isn't stopped, all hell can break loose and ruin the game. The most serious case I can think of were spirit spam builds in Tombs last summer. That's why there are hardly any things that need rebalancing in PvE: the only one I can think of are prot bond and minion masters.

So, PvE doesn't need as much tuning as PvP does because of its nature. If that somehow seems unfair to you, go play World of Warcraft, or another MMO which doesn't give a damn about PvP and stop whining. Thanks.

Phoenix Ex · Sep 10, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

PvE doesn't need balancing - monsters don't innovate. Anet balanced them when the game was created and the monsters still use the same skills in the same way today as they had last year.

Players in PvP, however, find ways to abuse skills and if this abuse isn't stopped, all hell can break loose and ruin the game. The most serious case I can think of were spirit spam builds in Tombs last summer. That's why there are hardly any things that need rebalancing in PvE: the only one I can think of are prot bond and minion masters.

So, PvE doesn't need as much tuning as PvP does because of its nature. If that somehow seems unfair to you, go play World of Warcraft, or another MMO which doesn't give a damn about PvP and stop whining. Thanks.

I'm sorry but PvE players pays just as much as PvP players so we should get as much as pvp does. If anything its the PvP people that whines the most, just look at the toucher nerf thread everywhere and all the complains about pup needs to be UAX and with each chapter blah blah.

Trevor Reznik · Sep 10, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr3g

Sorry, I think you are equivocating there. I honestly can't think of a single instance where a change to PvE has adversely affected PvP. Let's look at the major changes to PvE:

Every other skill or item nerf in this game has been because of PvP balance. If I'm wrong, give me one example to substantiate your claim that:

[t]here have been changes to PvE that have adversely affected PvP at times as well.

The nerf to minion masters. It completely killed the effectiveness of the Rift 2 E/R + 1 N/R + 1 W/R + 1 R/W build. If minions weren't nerfed, they possibly would see play in the current kgyu build on the Tainted necro instead of putrid.

Abdul · Sep 10, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fox

Economically speaking = Bad choice for profits, since this will encourage pvp players to not buy future expansions; rather they will purchase the cheaper and therefore less profitable pvp packs instead. Pvp people generally come from the "hooked on G.W.'s because they've spent 100's of hours playing crowd," so you're basically giving those who are most likely to buy future expansions (since they're addicted) a way to save money because they've already burnt out on pve.

Good choice for profits, it will stop PvPers from rage quitting the game at the thought of having to grind out more skills every expansion. Most likely it would also draw in new/returning customers from the competitive gaming crowd who originally shied away from GW due to the forced PvE/faction grind. Generalizing PvPers as addicts who continue to play because they have invested so much time into the game is rude and innaccurate.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 10, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

I don't think that the PvE community should be whining about Anet not caring about them.

No, the PvE community shouldn't, and by and large isn't. The people whining about PvP getting too much attention are farmers. You can tell by their demands: bring back the old monster AI, remove area unlocks, make running and powerlevelling easier, don't fix exploitable bugs & glitches.

Farmers may be active in the PvE world, but they're sure as heck not the PvE community.

baz777 · Sep 10, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

I enjoy PVE and PVP and will continue to unlock the skills the old fashion way but have no objections to this being an option if people are prepared to pay.

Just a thought though, can you provide an online ‘how to play’ guide for all those newly acquired skills/new PVP characters

cointerm · Sep 10, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

I think this pvp-only GW system is an excellent idea, and could benefit pve-only players.

Many of the Factions complaints were geared towards the skill-aquisition method and rushed pace of the game. This, no doubt, was liked by pvp players that wanted to unlock as many skills as possible with little "grind". Now, an even better option for pvpers comes along, allowing Anet to go to town on pve (long game, leisurely pace, rewarding skill-aquisition system). I hope they see that.

Vital · Sep 10, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

It's a real shame Anet wants to secure and make a profit off of it's targert market.

Here is an idea for all you free market consumers. Don't buy the game if you don't want to. Guild Wars isnt some state sponsered entertainment program for nerds.

PuPs are a good enough idea.

BeatWolf · Sep 10, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Things like buying skills for PvP is really giving me a bad impression on the company. I mean i unlocked all the skills through faction, which did take me a while but it was worth playing PvP for. Things like this make all that effort feel like nothing. It's like intreoducing Gold to buy in the store when people work hard to earn it, you go and make it avaliable via bank transfare.. sad, really.

The Fox · Sep 10, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abdul

Generalizing PvPers as addicts who continue to play because they have invested so much time into the game is rude and innaccurate.

How hard is it to learn to play PVP? Can a new person "really" just hop into the pvp crowd right from the start? Try getting into a HA group without having rank. I did not say PvPers wouldn't quit after playing a lot. I was indicating that they were less likely to quit after having played that much. It is an opinion, but a possibilty none the less.

Horseman Of War · Sep 10, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Reading some of these dramatic little posts... haha "ANet shoots self in foot"-- WHAT?? lol

Some of these little emo brats cry everytime there is an update or new idea. Although for those few people who bought a single class unlock already, they will definately feel 'used'

My personal opinion on the matter is that it is way too easy to unlock any skill/item that you want in just an hour of PvP matches.

I think offering a PvP edition is fine- I even made a post about it a couple weeks ago. Some people are convinced that buying Factions is pointless aside from using a ritualist, so this will give those particular people a chance to do so without enjoying as I did the PvE story.

People who complain about grinding, for some reason dont like Factions' quick pace either?

I dunno ANet- some people will hate you now matter what you do for them, but Ill be behind you until the day you take your servers offline.

If everyone was a balanced pvp/pve player like me, they would only ever need to buy the Chapter expansions anyway... But for those who only ever do HoH I guess being able to use IWAY as a group-finding method can do so just as easily.

I think any real fan of the game will just keep getting the expansions, where as the people who dont stay long- well, itll give them something to suck on for a while before they go back to whatever game they normally play.

ON THE SKILL UNLOCKING-
Do you think that you will allow the Skill Trainer at the Guild Hall will ever allow us to get ANY SKILL WEVE UNLOCKED rather than core skills that I know half of at level 10 anyway?

-Loki- · Sep 10, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fox

How hard is it to learn to play PVP? Can a new person "really" just hop into the pvp crowd right from the start? Try getting into a HA group without having rank. I did not say PvPers wouldn't quit after playing a lot. I was indicating that they were less likely to quit after having played that much. It is an opinion, but a possibilty none the less.

Don't generalise the PvP community by the retards that only play HA. If a new person jumped on an IRC channel (that's a problem with guild wars, not the PvP community, communication outside of 'LFG ****' in PvP areas gets lost by people trying to play) and talked to the PvPrs, played in some low PuGvGs, guested for some lower ranked guilds, and just became one of the 'crowd' then it's alot easier for them to get into PvP. I know, because that's how I got into it.

Horseman Of War · Sep 10, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatWolf

Things like buying skills for PvP is really giving me a bad impression on the company. I mean i unlocked all the skills through faction, which did take me a while but it was worth playing PvP for. Things like this make all that effort feel like nothing. It's like intreoducing Gold to buy in the store when people work hard to earn it, you go and make it avaliable via bank transfare.. sad, really.

so youre saying you would rather spend 40 extra dollars instead of the 'real' experience youve had with it? I dont understand the point of you posting at all.

Its nothing like gold. Thats rediculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ex

I'm sorry but PvE players pays just as much as PvP players so we should get as much as pvp does. If anything its the PvP people that whines the most, just look at the toucher nerf thread everywhere and all the complains about pup needs to be UAX and with each chapter blah blah.

pve players get a lot more than pvp players.

please tell me one single thing that pvp-only players can get that a pve player cant.

???

You want to know how I nerf the toucher? Dwarven Battle Stance. Done.

gr3g · Sep 10, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor Reznik

The nerf to minion masters. It completely killed the effectiveness of the Rift 2 E/R + 1 N/R + 1 W/R + 1 R/W build. If minions weren't nerfed, they possibly would see play in the current kgyu build on the Tainted necro instead of putrid.

That wasn't done because of PvE. Sorry. That was because of ABs, which last I checked was PvP.

TaiClaw · Sep 10, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Sweet, the way things are going I cannot wait to buy my level 20 Dervish in full 15k Armour from the Guild Wars Store.

But really, why should PVP players have to put less effort into attaining skills and mods than pve players. Not that I really care either way, though it seems a bit unfair that people can just buy whole sets of skills at there leisure with a few clicks of a button.

This is the only MMoRPG i've played where the company wants players to buy there content . It's sad if people play this game just so they can buy all the content with actual money and have everything laid out for them on a platter.

Then again I was not aware people bought this game JUST to pvp. The pvp is good in small doses, yet quickly becomes boring, especially if your on a loosing side.

This system of unlocking skill packs could have been implemented within the game, and be available to players with a certain amount of Faction points.

It seems to me that the only way Anet can hold onto there player base is to baby the lazy players. tsk tsk tsk.

*Extremely tired right now, so ignore the spelling mistakes and take what i've said as a grain of salt.*